How a Founding Dean Is Rethinking Clinical Education at the Edge of Silicon Valley — with Dr. Amy Bronson

How a Founding Dean Is Rethinking Clinical Education at the Edge of Silicon Valley — with Dr. Amy Bronson, Pepperdine University

Most episodes of The Early Hires feature clinicians who stepped inside a startup. This one takes a different angle. Dr. Amy Bronson is the founding dean of Pepperdine University’s brand-new School of Physician Assistant Studies — designing a clinical program from a blank page, at the edge of Silicon Valley, at the exact moment AI is rewriting what clinical competency means. She and Helen talk about what a clinician actually needs to know for the world they’re entering: how to teach critical thinking and AI literacy as real competencies, why business fundamentals belong in clinical training, and what startup clinical leaders can do on Monday with the new grads they’re hiring. A builder’s view from the architect’s seat.

Dr. Amy Bronson has spent more than fifteen years as a physician assistant specializing in ENT, plastics, and reconstructive surgery. She is also a researcher, TEDx speaker, educator, and multi‑time founding program leader. Today she serves as the founding dean of Pepperdine University’s new Physician Assistant program in Malibu, California, where she is designing curriculum, culture, and competencies from a blank page. 

This episode is for clinicians working inside startups, educators rethinking healthcare training, and leaders preparing teams for a healthcare system that is changing faster than traditional models can support.

Join the AIMed Conference! Code:  ABPA15  (15% off of the conference price)

* Pepperdine University, Master of Science in Physician Assistant Studies (MSPAS) has applied for Accreditation - Provisional from the Accreditation Review Commission on Education for the Physician Assistant (ARC-PA). The MSPAS program anticipates matriculating its first class in September 2027 pending achieving Accreditation - Provisional status at the April 2027 ARC-PA meeting.  Accreditation - Provisional is an accreditation status granted when the plans and resource allocation, if fully implemented as planned, of a proposed program that has not yet enrolled students appear to demonstrate the program's ability to meet the ARC-PA Standards or when a program holding Accreditation-Provisional status appears to demonstrate continued progress in complying with the Standards as it prepares for the graduation of the first class (cohort) of students. If the MSPAS program does not achieve Accreditation - Provisional status, the program will not commence, and students will not matriculate. Accepted students will be refunded for any deposits or tuition paid. Application fees are not refundable.

The MSPAS program at Pepperdine University has been approved by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges (WASC) Senior College & University Commission (WSCUC).

Must-Hear Insights and Key Moments

• Building without a playbook is becoming a core leadership skill in modern healthcare education

• Clinicians do not need to feel fully prepared before stepping into innovation and leadership roles

• Dr. Amy Bronson has served as a founding faculty member, founding program director, and now founding dean building PA programs from the ground up.

• AI literacy is now part of clinical literacy, not a separate technical specialty

• Curiosity and systems thinking help clinicians bridge gaps between healthcare, technology, and business

• The future of medical education depends on embedding AI and systems thinking across curriculum, not isolating it into one course

• Clinical reasoning skills matter more, not less, in an AI-enabled healthcare environment

• Healthcare organizations need clinicians involved early in technology design, governance, and implementation

• New graduates thrive in environments that provide mentorship, support, leadership development, and space to continue learning

• Amy is designing Pepperdine’s first PA program with AI literacy, systems thinking, and clinical reasoning embedded throughout the curriculum

Words of Wisdom: Standout Quotes from This Episode

• " I realized about myself that I love to build. I love to look at not just where we are now, but where we need to be to design with the end in mind." - Amy Bronson

• " If you're in a place that's making you think outside the box, a few times a week, you're probably in a good place, if that's a part of your personality and what you like to do." - Amy Bronson

• " Education is advocacy. We have incredibly intelligent humans that surround us that are willing and excited to give their medical knowledge and to pay it forward for these students." - Amy Bronson

• " We are doing a disservice to students if we're not giving them a comprehensive understanding of what the landscape looks like. " - Amy Bronson

•  ”Doing my doctorate in educational leadership really helped me, um, to have that lens, but more importantly to know myself better and prepared me for the next step in my journey.” - Amy Bronson

• " You can listen to a few things, read some things. But as a clinician, a lot of times it is jumping, as you say, two feet in first. Figuring it out, finding your community, or finding extended education to continue to improve." - Helen Tanner

• "We have our rigorous clinical standards, but the real question is: What does a clinician actually need to know to thrive in the world they are entering, not the world that existed when most training programs were designed?" - Helen Tanner

• “This seems to be a common theme with the guests I interview. People believed in me, nudged me, said ‘You can do more,’ and then a totally different path opened up.” - Helen Tanner

• "It was not like you had everything wrapped up and then took the leap. You took the leap first, and then figured out how you were going to improve on it more." - Helen Tanner

• “The question of how we prepare clinicians is not just an education question. It's a leadership question, and it belongs to everyone in this space, not just the people designing the curriculum, but the people hiring new grads, running clinical teams, and building the environments that clinicians are stepping into.” - Helen Tanner

Mentioned in the episode:

• Pepperdine University’s School of Physician Assistant Studies - https://healthscience.pepperdine.edu/school-of-physician-assistant-studies/

• Join the AIMed Conference! Code:  ABPA15  (15% off of the conference price)

About Dr. Amy

Dr. Amy Bronson, EdD, PA-C with more than fifteen years of clinical experience in ENT, plastics, and reconstructive surgery. Beyond practice, she has built a career as a researcher, TEDx speaker, educator, and multi‑time founding program director. She holds a doctorate in educational leadership and an advanced certification in AI and medicine from the American Board of Artificial Intelligence and Medicine.

Her leadership includes serving as principal investigator on federally funded research totaling more than $2.5 million and directing new PA programs that bridged care gaps in rural Colorado. Today, she is the founding dean of Pepperdine University’s School of Physician Assistant Studies in Malibu, California.

Dr. Amy Bronson’s work centers on designing curriculum, and competencies from a blank page, preparing clinicians for a rapidly evolving healthcare landscape. She emphasizes system literacy and interprofessional collaboration that extends beyond medicine. Her philosophy is rooted in education advocacy and equipping clinicians to thrive in any environment.

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Blog Transcript:

Note: We use AI transcription so there may be some inaccuracies

Helen Tanner: Most episodes of the Early Hires feature clinicians who stepped inside a startup and navigated what came next. Today's episode takes a slightly different angle, and it's a really important one. My guest today is not necessarily building inside a traditional startup, but she's doing something that every clinician in a startup eventually runs into, building from a blank page, no precedent to follow other than maybe some general protocols, um, in an environment that is changing faster than any playbook can, can keep up with.

Dr. Amy Bronson is a PA, a researcher, a TEDx speaker, and a builder of programs. She has been a founding program director multiple times. She holds a doctorate in educational leadership and an advanced certification in AI and medicine from the American Board of Artificial Intelligence and Medicine. She served as a principal investigator on federally funded research totaling more than two and a half million dollars, and she's just stepped into one of the most interesting roles in clinical education right now, founding dean of a brand-new school of PA studies at Pepperdine University in Malibu, California, sitting just thirty miles from downtown LA and not very far from the world capital of the technology disruption.

This is the first PA program that Pepperdine has ever built. The first class has not enrolled yet, so she's designing the whole thing right now, curriculum, culture, competencies, with a vis-- very specific question in mind. What does a clinician actually need to know to thrive in the world they're entering?

Not the world that existed when most training programs were designed. For anyone in this audience who's hiring new grads, building clinical training inside of a startup or wondering how to help your team stay current, I think this conversation is going to be very useful to you. Welcome, Amy.

Amy Bronson: Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. 

Helen Tanner: All right.

So you've been a practicing PA for more than 15 years, special- specializing in ENT and plastics and reconstructive surgery. At what point did you realize that your path was going to take you out of the traditional clinic setting, and what did that moment feel like for you? 

Amy Bronson: Yeah. I love that question. I think even as a clinician working in clinical practice, I always knew I loved education, whether it was empowering patients or teaching residents that came through our ENT practice.

I loved being able to help empower those around me to know more about the ecosystems they were working in to better make clinical outcomes that we could all be excited about. And, um, with an opportunity to formalize that education from being a preceptor to my first foray into full-time education, I really knew that the educational impact that I could have could be exponential by moving into a place in which we were training.

Um, and so when I looked at an opportunity to be a part of a program that was, um, a founding, um, faculty member of a program, it was so exciting to get to step into a new space where we were building. Um, and I realized about myself that I love to build. I love to look at not just where we are now, but where do we need to be to design with the end in mind, knowing that clinicians are going to have to be able to do something that we don't even know what that landscape may look like, and I think that has become even more exponential, um, as I've continued, um, through that journey.

And I think one of the beautiful things is learning that you have the capability to know how to do something different and then going to get more training. And so my education of going into my doctoral studies and really learning the landscape of higher ed, I kept saying, "I need a lens in which to better understand this new world that I'm working in."

Um, and doing my doctorate in educational leadership really helped me, um, to have that lens, but more importantly to know myself better and prepared me for the next step in my journey, which was founding program director and then getting to build a new program at Colorado Mesa University, which really was a love for me.

I returned to the place where I learned and did clinical practice and got to bridge the gap, which was a need for more clinical partners to be able to extend care in western rural Colorado. Um, and that's just a really cool opportunity, um, when you think about impact of education and really the people that we serve.

Um, and so I would say my educational journey was more about finding, seeing gaps, not necessarily just in training, but in really impact in what we could do by building and bridging- together both clinical care and the educational components that make it possible. 

Helen Tanner: So when you were in clinical practice- Practice

and then you started to become interested in teaching, did you, um, go get, decide to go get your doctorate first or did you teach first and then decide, "You know what? I'm gonna go get a little bit more training," and then go back and, and, and, um, into a different program, or how did that work? 

Amy Bronson: Yeah, great question.

I jumped two feet in. 

Helen Tanner: Okay. 

Amy Bronson: And then as I was, uh, in full-time education, I kept hearing and understanding the architecture and landscape of higher education and the governance process, which I was like, "I don't get what is happening with a lot of these things." And realizing there's a, there's a way to understand and know more about this, and part of that is continuing my educational journey.

And so it was when I was... I went into my first full-time faculty role is when I decided to continue my education, go on to get my doctorate, um, and to get more of an understanding of the landscape that I was working in. 

Helen Tanner: Excellent. Okay. Yeah, because I feel like a lot of our listeners, and I know that you can resonate with this, uh, just kind of being in the AI and the startup space, a lot of times y- there's not a lot of preparation for jumping into a startup space.

You... Or, or, or preparing for it. I mean, there's, there... You can listen to a few things, read some things. But as a clinician, a lot of times it is jumping, as you say, two feet in first. Figuring it out, finding your community, or finding, uh, extended education to get to continue to improve. So I think that's an important distinction.

It wasn't like you had everything wrapped up, you got all this done, and then you took the leap. Like, you took the leap first- Yeah ... and then figured out how you're gonna even improve on it more. 

Amy Bronson: Yes. 

Helen Tanner: Yeah. 

Amy Bronson: Yes. And I think about that journey, and think about the willingness to take a leap, right? Is, is one piece.

Like, I'm just inherently a very curious human. Yeah. And so I think the curiosity, right, of what you follow and your passions brings you to that place. But I also think about the humans along the way, and the people in my life that made that possible. Yeah. And the ones that really said to me, "You should try."

Like, "You may not know. You don't, you may not have it all figured out. You may not understand all the pieces that actually go into it, but just try it." Yeah. Um, and I think that those nudges that we feel, um, and I always say if you're in a place that's making you think outside the box, um, a few times a week, you're probably in a good place, um, if that's a part of your personality- That's a great point

and what you like to do. And I love that push, right? That push of if you're having to think a little bit differently, think a little more strategically, and/or look at having to go back and learn something more, there's creating community around that, and there's other probably collaborative builders that are doing that, too.

And I think that's what I love about this space that you're convening, um, because there is so much collaborative conversations that can happen around folks that are willing just to either raise a hand or jump in, um, to trying something and learning along the way. 

Helen Tanner: Yeah. This seems to be a common theme with the guests that I interview.

Amy, very similar. E- everybody says the same thing. I, I had people that believed in me or kinda nudged me, and, "You can do more. You should try this," and I decided to, and then a total different path has opened up for them. Yeah. 

Amy Bronson: Yes. 

Helen Tanner: Yes. So before we get into what you are building at Pepperdine... Is it Pepperdine?

It's Pepperdine, correct? 

Amy Bronson: Pepperdine. 

Helen Tanner: Pepperdine. Yep. Yeah. Yep, 

Amy Bronson: you 

Helen Tanner: got it. I've, I've seen the beautiful campus, and I mean, it's just- ... stunning. Um, so I wanna give listeners who are not PAs, because we have m- physicians, they have nurse practitioners, dentists, pharmacists. We have a- uh, nurses. We have, um, a number of, uh, clinician leaders listening.

Give us a quick orientation about PA education. It's sometimes misunderstood. Um, so in the plainest, kind of most simplest terms, I know this isn't the whole goal of the podcast, but let's set a standard here of what PA education, uh, is, is. 

Amy Bronson: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I love talking about this. Obviously, it's what I live and breathe every day.

But I, I think it's important, um, for folks to know just the rigor, um, that goes into PA training. When we are thinking about curriculum build, you know, it is a 27-month program in which students are with us 16 months in the classroom. And as I say to students, every day, all day, because it, it truly is. Um, students are there 8:00 a.m. till often 6:00 p.m. at night. That's didactic instruction, lectures. That's hands-on learning that's happening in clinical skills lab. That's small group case-based learning, um, where students are really immersed in a system-based education around really medical education that we try and truncate and put into those 16 months that they're with us every day in the classroom.

Lots of hands-on application in education. And then students go and do an additional 11 to 12 months where they are out in clinical rotations. So our students do eight weeks of clinical, um, um, eight rotations each four weeks, um, where they're going out on those clinical rotations, and you think about it as like a little mini residency where they're, they are with those clinicians every day learning their craft, learning that art of medicine, and applying the medical knowledge that they learned in the didactic year.

And so, yes, it looks fast on paper, um, but I will tell you, the investment of time and energy that goes into that, both on the faculty side and the student side, um, can't be sort of misnumbered in, um, the amount of hours in clinical training that goes into, um, the student development of those PAs. Yeah, 

Helen Tanner: and I remember when I was in school, one of the thing that was really notable, 'cause we did a lot of classes with, with the med students, um, as, as that first year.

Um, and I just remember, um, A, enjoying it. That was a great... That was a fun experience to all be together. But, B, um, we had no breaks. You know, there was no... I mean, you know, we had a little bit off for the holidays, but there was no breaks. There was no sum- we didn't have a summer break. Um- Summers ... so I do think that that's something that sometimes we don't take into consideration, um, within that training is, that is a little bit different.

It's truly just straight through, gun it straight, straight through, and it's, it's, um, rigorous in that sense. Uh, and on top of everything else, but yes. 

Amy Bronson: Absolutely. Yep, those back-to-back trimesters, and you may get a week off- Yeah ... um, but really the expectation is it's a full- more than a full-time job. Um, because when you finish classes, students are going home studying, readying for, ready for the application of the next day.

Helen Tanner: Right. Um, okay, well thank you for that. And, um, and right now, uh, so a PA education, you know, you go four years to college, you apply, and then when you graduate from PA school, you are, get a master's degree. And then, um, you take the cer- the PA cert, board certification exam, um, to be able to, to practice. So that's- Yeah

that's still the drill, correct? 

Amy Bronson: It's still the drill. It's still, it's still the... Yes, still go through the licensure examination. I think one of the other pieces that's really important, um, all PA programs have a summative exam, um, where there are program-level competencies that all students are having to meet prior to graduation.

So yes, we still have board exams that students are doing, but those are very rigorous- 

Helen Tanner: Yes ... 

Amy Bronson: um, a- assessments that are a part of student learning. And so I think that's also a very important aspect of that hands-on care that they are showing in their development of their medical knowledge is as, as important, I would say too, as being able to show their medical knowledge in certification and licensure, and then the ongoing training that they, they continue to do in continuing medical education is important, too.

Helen Tanner: And then my last question on this is the, uh, medic- the clinicians who are providing the training are PAs and MDs predominantly, or, uh, who... And, um, I remember I had, uh, some pharmacists, um, teach the pharmacology lecture. What... Is that still similar, or who is actually providing the training during PA school to the students?

Amy Bronson: Yeah. Instructional faculty, right, are predominantly PAs, physicians, our nurse practitioner friends. Um, we do have pharmacists that help with the pharmacology courses. We have some anatomists, um, who really help, um, students to learn that anatomy and physiology, some of the science background and training.

Um, but we really are reliant a lot on our clinical partners, meaning the physicians, our PAs, our NPs, those that we're training with, right, out in the field, um, where they're getting that hands-on patient care. It's so valuable, um, to student learning because we know medical knowledge is one piece. We know the art of medicine is a whole another.

Um, and it's-- So they're spending a lot of time with clinicians out and learning their craft. Um, and they are so invaluable in that work that we do. 

Helen Tanner: Perfect. Okay. Thank you for setting that stage. So you have- Yes ... we have our wonderful, uh, clinical standards, uh, rigorous clinical standards that we need to meet and that you need to meet as a program.

Um, and so I wanna spend a moment on your geography and kind of what you're experiencing, both obviously, uh, you know, physical location, but just in a sense of what's going on right now. So, um, you are building this program in Malibu, not s- not too far from Silicon Valley. Um, how-- Does that environment at all shape what you are designing?

Is it a deliberate, de- a deliberate kind of a asset that you're leaning into or- Does it matter? 

Amy Bronson: Yeah. Yeah. I know, I love that question. And really the framework that we've really been thinking about as a team since we started is we feel like medicine has often been disrupted, um, and we would love to train the next disruptors, um, to really go out and be innovators in a space that I think needs a lot of clinicians at the table.

I often love to say education is advocacy, and we have incredibly intelligent humans that surround us that are willing and excited, um, to really give their medical knowledge and to pay it forward for these students. And so, um, I look forward to the build, um, and continuing to flesh out a lot of the meat on the bones of what students are going to get in a really transformative education.

But certainly ge- geography has become a piece of it because it's disruptive. We know technology has been disruptive. We do believe it can be a tool for better and a tool for good. Um, but we like to think it less as just utilizing the tool and more of an architectural layer- Yeah ... of where we are going, um, in medicine.

And how do students become not just AI literate, but I think health and business and technology literate in an understanding of how that can really be good to bridge some of the problems that they see, um, and how they can help be part of the solution as we move forward in medicine. 

Helen Tanner: Yeah. And, and you hold an advanced certification in AI in medicine, is that right? It- That 

Amy Bronson: is true. 

Helen Tanner: Tell us what, what exactly is that? And how, you know- Yeah ... how, how do you utilize that, um, in your work- Yeah ... and work? Yeah. 

Amy Bronson: Yeah. I love that question, and I think I often get asked like, "Oh, you must love AI and you love..." And the reality is, is I saw, um, about six to seven years ago, I was sort of watching this wave of technology and hearing the term artificial intelligence.

And I had a really smart doctoral student who was doing work around AI, and I thought, "Man, that's interesting. I should know more." Um, and that sort of curiosity piece of like what do I need to know to better understand this, to better prepare students for a landscape of medicine that I can't keep up with and, quite frankly, cl- curriculum won't keep up with.

Um, so how do we get curious about what that needs to look like and how we make sure students are ready? And that led me to an incredible group of humans that are doing this work and, and really Dr. Chang, who is the founder of the American Board of Artificial Intelligence and Medicine, who was a clinician, is a clinician, um, but went back to Stanford, um, to really understand the architecture around computer science, um, and really the basics of what we need to know to understand how to apply this in the medical setting.

And he really talked about the importance of clinicians becoming bilingual. Um, and the minute that I had a moment to meet him, to meet not only his crew and community surrounding this, I thought, "You know what? This is the place I need to be. This is the understanding that I need to have," and really became the fuel for me to understand some of the basics, um, behind what AI is and what it isn't, and more importantly, what we need to understand about it to be more literate, um, as we continue to move forward in a world that's going to be indicted with this work.

And so it, for me, was a lot more of not necessarily the certification, but more of the learning, um, and really trying to understand what this evolving landscape looks like, um, and who are the people that are at the forefront of making decisions about how this impacts clinicians every day in the work that they do.

Helen Tanner: From y- you know, from what you've learned there and then kind of what you have worked on since, h- how do you teach students to engage with something that's evolving so quickly? I mean, I know you're still working on that. Right now you're building your program. Um, y- uh, is there s- have you set particular standards or protocols, or are you in the process of doing that?

How are you, uh, kind of addressing this? I'm, I'm sure everybody is- Yeah ... dying to hear, um, best practices- Yeah ... of what, uh, what you might be doing, so. 

Amy Bronson: Yeah. 

Helen Tanner: Or thinking. 

Amy Bronson: And I... Yeah, absolutely. And I certainly am in the place of it is a bit of a blank slate. Mm-hmm. And we are learning alongside what we are doing as we roll this out.

Um, I think our goal and our strategy has been, this isn't a standalone course. This is something that just needs to be embedded in everything that we do. A, we know students are using it. Yep. B, um, we don't want them to be reliant on it, because we do think that there are critical thinking skills that are so important to the work that they're doing every day.

And C, we know it's going to be a part of the landscape in which they practice. We don't know what that's going to look like, um, but they better be prepared, um, and at least have a language for it. So we've really started with the literacy framework of, what are the basic building blocks that you need to know about artificial intelligence to understand what it is and what it isn't?

How do you critique it and understand what it may not know, and how do you ask really thoughtful and good questions- Mm-hmm ... about the work that's happening? Because I think so much, and so often it can feel like for clinicians, things that are done for us and then put in place, and we're just supposed to act that out.

Um, and I really am sitting with students and helping them to understand, we have got to be advocates, most importantly for the patient sitting in front of us. Mm-hmm. And then an even more important piece of that is in the infrastructure that's built around them to help them navigate a system, um, that can be very complex.

And so we really have done an architectural system thinking, um, to sort of build AI into that sphere. So it isn't a standalone course. It's embedded throughout our coursework. It's also a part of their clinical reasoning skills course. Mm-hmm. Because we want to know and understand how students are using it, and then more importantly, help shape and form the questions that they're asking and the reasoning that they're using behind it.

Um, because to me, that's where we're going to have to bridge some gaps- Right ... within education, is understanding- Got to know, larger problem ... what do students actually know. 

Helen Tanner: Yeah. 

Amy Bronson: Yes. 

Helen Tanner: Mm-hmm. 

Amy Bronson: Yes, 100%. You know, that we're leaning into governance, and what does that look like, and having real conversations with students about how that impacts them individually, but more importantly, in the roles in which they'll serve in the future.

Helen Tanner: Yeah. 

Amy Bronson: Yeah. 

Helen Tanner: Yeah. So as a PA leader and educator, you've built a number of successful programs. Um, when you think about working cross-collaboratively, you know, training across professions, um, you know, not necess- You know, yes, working alongside each other, but also learning together, you know, interprofessional education, and even how, how that's changing, um, and adapting, you know, each and every day.

How, how are you, I guess, teaching your students, um, or will you in this case, um, to really work together with all the different Uh, you know, entities within medicine. And, and, um, is that changing or what are you experiencing with planning for that? 

Amy Bronson: Yeah. I love that. I think we, we often have thought about interprofessional education as those people adjacent to us, right?

Like, who are the other students that we're training with? Who are the other healthcare professional students at Pepperdine that we can work together, um, with? And I-- while I do think that that is still important, one of the things that we're thinking about being very future-focused is what are the complexities of what we're trying to solve and who need to be the people at the table?

You know, as we think about interprofessional education, we're expanding that out to IT teams and research teams. And how are we thinking differently about what problem we're trying to solve, and who are our partners at the table? Because I think we often think about the scope of only healthcare professions, which I would say is a huge important piece for us to understand what one another do.

Um, and as we teach students, just get wildly curious. If you don't know, go ask the question. Be willing to seek out whether or not you have an understanding of what that other person can offer. Um, but more importantly, to think more strategically about the systems and process around you that could support and create infrastructure for the patient sitting in front of you.

And that may not be the normal traditional IPE or interprofessional education, um, components that we've often thought about. But how do we bridge that to more system thinking? Um, because I think that is going to be more of impacts, um, for patients and for our students as they go out into practice in the future.

Helen Tanner: Yeah. And I mean, even getting a little bit more specific here, and I know you and I had chatted about this the other day, is, um, when we-- even when we talk about cross-collaboration, we as clinicians are so used to thinking about that only in a clinician sense. Um, you know, let me talk with y- clearly like my physician colleague or my, or, you know, a specialty colleague or the pharmacist or, you know.

But actually, um, and maybe this is also what you're alluding to in the systems, a larger systems thinking is my business colleagues who are a part of my practice or my system or, um, even my IT colleagues. I mean, I know you don't always see them often, but, you know, engaging on maybe improvements of EMR, improvements of...

And so, um, you know, along that line- Most clinical training programs do not teach business fundamentals. I mean, that's not necessarily the base goal of clinical education. But when we think about where medicine's going, our view models, compensation structures, you know, we all know the contract negotiation, how a practice actually runs, which a lot of times financially that comes down to coding, uh, to billing and decoding, and decoding is done by the provider, medical providers.

So, you know, you are in a position to potentially, you know, change that education or add on to the education that's being provided. Is there room in the curriculum for that? I mean, what does that look like? What are your thoughts on that? 

Amy Bronson: Yeah. I love that question, and my answer is yes. 

Helen Tanner: I 

Amy Bronson: think we are doing a disservice to students if we're not giving them a comprehensive understanding of what the landscape looks like.

Um, I do think that we have to be strategic in how we do that. You know, uh, we talked about PA education and how it is already full. Like 8 to 5 every day, students are there. That is content, right? To un- to understand the medical knowledge. That's also content on professionalism. That's also content on- Mm-hmm

AI and system thinking and infrastructure that's coming. That's also content on business modeling. So how do we fit that all in, um, to education with students, right? And I think our solution has certainly been how can we include that in our medicine training? So I'll give you an example. Our clinical reasoning course, right, is all about, yep, patient presentation, what's the diagnosis, how do you work through that, and what are the business components that you are feeling as a clinician and but more importantly, what is your practice thinking?

What is the hospital system needing? Right? There is so much infrastructure that if we're not helping students to understand that, they go out into practice, and then they don't have a framework to understand that. I truly think that that is part of why we see a lot of the burnout that we see is because we go out with one sort of characterization of what we think practice is going to look like, and then there's a whole another learning that has to happen that we don't feel supported in as clinicians.

And so certainly we know we're not going to be able to give them everything- Mm-hmm ... but I do think if we give them a few buckets of places where they can put that information in the future and teach them to be enduring learners, um, that can continue to go out and then also provide some of that infrastructure even post-graduation, continue to be there for those students, um, I think that's where we can make a big difference, um, in ensuring that they have some of those business fundamentals that I do think are really important to them truly having system literacy when we think about healthcare.

Helen Tanner: Yeah, and I get a question, I've, I've had this question a couple times in a few different formats, um, about what to expect from new grads if you're hiring. And there are a lot of... There are a number of startups that are hiring new grads. You know, in reality, um, right, in some ways it's because they're more formative, they can train them.

In some ways, right, it's because in general they are gonna be more affordable as they're starting out, go, you know, to just the reality than an experienced. Um, you know, there's a number of reasons, um, and, and I'm glad. You know, new grads need jobs, and they need to get their training. You know, I, um, but with that said, being a new grad, as we all know, in whatever industry you're in, and especially clinical, it's just gonna take a little bit to get your footing despite great training.

And so, um, you know, what are some... So there are sometimes frustrations about what's they thought they should know versus what they should know. And a lot of it is, yes, they're f- honing their skills clinically, but certainly, to your point, you know, they are definitely honing skills within a work environment of, of a practice or a business environment.

Um, and then you take into consideration those that just graduated from, from, like, their master's level, like, clinical program to a doctor level, um, preparation. And so I think, you know, that's a lot all in that, that area. But what should leaders who have hired new grads, and I'm gonna, and I'm gonna focus in on, like, kind of new stage, uh, early-stage companies.

You know, what should they understand about what a new grad can bring? And, um, regardl- you know, and, and what will they need to learn on the job per se?

Amy Bronson: Yeah. I think it's a great question, and I think it's...

You know, as I think about students coming out, there's these core competencies that we say students need to have to graduate. There's a medical knowledge baseline students need to have in order to be ready, right? Entry-level practice ready. But then when we really think about the reality of what does that mean, um, especially the type of practice they're entering, um, the type of systems that they're entering, all look very different, um, for our new grads.

And I would say for practices that are hiring new grads, you can expect that students are coming out with their basic clinical knowledge and understanding and ready to be autonomously supported by a collaborative team. Um, and when I think about the best collaborative teams out there for students making that transition to practice, it's ones that are giving them a safe space, um, to be able to remain curious, but also to stay open about what they know and what they do not know.

Um, I think providing some of that systems and infrastructure of helping them understand where are the places they can go and who are the people they can reach out to that can support them learning some of those gaps. And then I think some continued meaningful leadership development, right? Because I think sometimes when we think about clinical skills, there is that maturation process that one goes through in order to get to the place where they feel really confident in their work.

Um, and I think that maturation process, that clinical reasoning and understanding, and that thing we call wisdom, that intuition that just says, "Gosh, that's not right," right? That takes lots of data points over time to be able to formulate those. And so I think very- being very strategic about that, and I can tell you there's some really cool fellowships, um, APP fellowships out there where they are inviting folks into that, and I think giving a lot of the bridge work that happens there.

I think there's really stellar onboarding processes that I've seen with some of our clinical partners, and then we're trying to be a partner in that, um, in really trying to think about what are those gaps that we still wanna close, and how can we continue to do that thoughtfully as an institution, as the program, but more importantly, to continue to support our graduates as they go into practice.

Helen Tanner: Um, and then two questions from that, Amy. Does it-- Do you mind, you know, you mentioned having, knowing some really strong onboarding practices, and do, is there a way we could share that in the show notes in case anybody listening is interested in learning about some strong APP onboarding? New grads listening.

Absolutely. Yes. Okay. And the second thing is, I wanna kinda flip this on a script. So if, if you're a new grad listening to this, and, um, keeping in mind the focus of this, this podcast and community is the startup world. And, and, and Amy, you just shared that, um, new grads, and I agree with this 100%, um, really do s- well with structure, with there's structure, if there's like an infrastructure in place, um, for the support needed to continue to hone skills and gain confidence as a provider in the field.

Um, I do think that is something, if you are a new grad, to kind of put the flag up and see what structure is out. If you are entering, if you're looking at a really cool opportunity with a startup, you know, they're very young or maybe Series A, you know, maybe Series B, they've just started to start grow out their team.

There might be a couple other clinicians. I really encourage you to ask good questions. What structure is set for clinicians, um, to really succeed? Because early on, a lot of times there is not an infrastructure. It's just simply because of where the company is in their building stage. Nothing wrong with the company.

That's a typical startup step. But that could potentially be a red flag and a very frustrating point for somebody who's not only honing their clinical skills on their own, but also there's not a general structure 

Amy Bronson: yet. 

Helen Tanner: There, it's being built, and so you may be asking for f- get asked for your feedback Um, "What do you think about this?"

And you're still trying to remember, "Okay, let me go back and make sure I'm treating the heart failure correctly," you know? And versus somebody much more experienced may have the heart failure protocol quite down and, and whatnot, and so they're able to kind of have that confidence to look out- outside and look at some other things.

And so if there's nothing wrong with that stage that you are in as a new grad, and there's nothing wrong with the stage of the startup, it just may be a challenging fit. So however, it could be that you are the type of new grad where, and the ty- the type of role, where it may be the perfect fit for where you are.

So I think it's a matter of just being honest with where you are, where the company is, asking those questions, um, learning what questions to ask, um, which we're happy to help you with here, um, or, um... And, and then evaluating before you jump in 'cause I have had, on my end, when I was hiring, I, um, really struggled with hiring new grads, especially early on, because we didn't have the structure to support.

And even though we wanted to, you know, we didn't, we, w- we, um... And so I, it would've set somebody up to fail and give them really low confidence when they didn't need that. You know, they're a stellar, but it just wasn't the right environment.

Amy Bronson: Um, I, as I love to tell new students and new grads, you may have something, an area of medicine you're so passionate about, but you may do a rotation and realize that the onboarding you're going to get, the education that they are going to invest in who you are is going to be wildly more important for your- Yeah

initial and first job than the actual space that you eventually may wanna find yourself in. And so I, I really think that that's so important. And, and as I say to students, you have to know yourself. You have to know, um, what kind of infrastructure you need in place for you to build some of that confidence and skill, 'cause I've seen students step into places that they can go and they can build right away.

Their maturation process was to a place as a clinician that they were ready. Um, and other students who have done way better stepping into a place in which there is just really good structured, very rigid training process where they are given more and more autonomy over time. And so I think you're so right.

Knowing the questions to ask and also knowing the place that it is and the people that are involved is such an important aspect of making them successful as clinicians for the long term. 

Helen Tanner: Yeah. And, um, you know, and then kind of speaking of career paths after graduation and, um, you know, what about people, uh, in your, in your path who kind of feel pulled into education and, and innovating within the education space, um, for the next generation of, of healthcare providers?

What might that pathway look like today? 

Amy Bronson: Yeah. I, I always... Any clinician out there who has thought about education, is thinking about education either is in a place where they wanna pay it forward or they love to innovate. They love research. So I would say there is a place for you. Um, I think, and I know that I am biased, but the-

education space is advocacy. Um, I love the work that we do. It is one of the hardest jobs I've ever had, but why do I love it? Because I wake up every day knowing we have the chance to not just change a life, but to change many lives and to change the structure of how community health happens. Um, and when I think about the opportunities we've had in building programs, those who are interested, I always tell s- people, "Jump in," right?

I get a lot of clinicians that are like, "Well, maybe I'll come in and, like, teach a class," and, and I often say to them, "Yes, and I would think also about just jumping in with us," because you can't learn all the pieces at once. 

Helen Tanner: Mm-hmm. 

Amy Bronson: It's a process, and that's why I think mentoring matters, um, and why I really believe strongly in teams that have both folks who are new to education, those who have been in education, because there's new energies and excitement that come into the sphere that we do- From clinical practice to seeing students do something for the first time, but there is such joy, um, in that work.

And so if anyone is interested, wants to talk about what that looks like, I'm passionate about it, happy to have conversations with anyone who's thinking about, "Do I need to go and get another degree before I do it?" I would say, "No, dip your toe in. Um, come and join us." Um, because the work is really fruitful, um, and a really exciting space to be in.

Helen Tanner: Yeah. Um, okay, I'm gonna, um... And I know you are, it's probably hard to get out of the educator hat, but I'm gonna do the, uh, A- A- Amy as the AI, um, trained expert, um, um, education... A- AI expert, I guess I'm just gonna say. So I know that you and I, there's a lot of clinicians who are feeling genuinely anxious right now about being replaced.

Yeah. Um, and, you know, worried about what their role will look like in five years. You know, from your vantage point, d- what do you think clinicians need to do right now to stay relevant? You know, what are you thinking about this landscape and these, these worrisome, you know, points? You know, should people be worried or what are your thoughts?

Amy Bronson: Yeah. I, I get this question a lot and, um, my response to clinicians is, AI is not gonna replace clinicians. I do think that clinicians that don't know AI can get replaced. Um, and I only say that not as a, you need to think about this for tomorrow, but I do think we need to be thinking about what literacy do we need to understand about the systems we're working in.

I don't see this any different as any other technological evolution that we've had. Um, I think we all have a little bit of disillusionment of, right, the EMR was gonna come in, it was gonna buy us a little more time, we were gonna spend more time with students, and all we do is key things into computers now instead of sitting face-to-face with our students.

And I like to reframe this question with, what are the things that we need to hone in on as clinicians? What are the things that can't re- be replaced, and how do we get better at those? Um, and I think curiosity is king in this one. Um, we are curious as humans, we are connected as humans, and humans need connection.

Um, our patients need that connection. They need us to see the human that they are sitting in front of us, not a data point. Um, and so I think AI is really good at solution architecture when it comes to data points and putting that data together, but we can harness that data to work for us as humans to continue to not just be in the loop, but driving that change.

And I think the more of us that get comfortable with AI and what it is and what it isn't, the more it becomes embedded in some of the things that we do. Um, I think we will become more comfortable working within our clinical sphere, and us being able to propel ourselves forward in the clinical competency that we're able to do and what we're actually able to offer some of our patients for the future.

I think it is scary. The headlines are scary. Um, but I continue to say to our connected humans that are clinicians, stay human, figure out the things that are irreplaceable about the work that you do, and continue to get better at those skill sets, because that's what's gonna set us apart, and continue to ensure that we have jobs into the future.

Helen Tanner: Yeah. Um, I really agree with that. I, um- am doing some clinical work in an underserved clinic one day a week to keep up my clinical skills as I, you know, build out this community and, and stay in the startup space. And this clinic, um, does not have an embedded, uh, AI with the EMR. Or there is one, but the EMR is, uh...

anyway, it needs some work. Um, but, but I started to use Open Evidence. We have, um, a BAA and, you know, that's, that's-- we can use that safely, and I have no-- there's no paid anything with Open Evidence at all. I'm just gonna shout it out because I, um, was-- I see patients that speak other language, and so, um, I can speak, uh, Spanish, but I can't speak some of the other languages.

And I was really struggling with, um, coming from a place where I was using AI all the time for my, you know, ambient scribing and what a s- lifesaver and timesaver that is for as a clinician, and then coming to a place all of a sudden where I was going back to just your regular EMR charting. And so I was paying, um, for a multilingual AI per month to be able to keep the efficiency and flow up.

And then Open Evidence, I realized, has updated, and now they are multilingual and, you know, for free, right? If you have an NPI number, you can utilize Open Evidence. And I-- It's just been such a game changer. And I, um, everything from... You know, now I'll, now, again, to-- based on what you're saying, I can literally just go in there, let the patient know that I'm gonna, you know, um, s- start the AI so that I...

and then I can... I don't even have to look at my computer anymore. I mean, I can just one hundred percent look at this patient and have a conversation with them, and that has drastically changed, right, how you, I pra- we practice medicine over the past, I mean Now, just recently, right? About how we can go back to just true face-to-face, not having to type all the time, and then get out and have your note basically a draft done.

Obviously, you have to edit, you have to do all the right, all the things we know you have to do. But again, I just can't imagine, you know, even six months from now, a year from now, if you're not doing that. There's so many now good free tools out there. Even if they don't integrate directly with your EMR, it is so simple to s- get your company to get a BAA to be able to use that in a compliant manner to, to make your life easier.

And I can now, after a full day, basically close my charts at the end of the day with no work coming home, which we know as clinicians, that's super rare. But i- it's, it's, um, you know, it, there, it multilingual, I mean, monolingual. You know, there's just so many w- things being navigated to break down barriers to, on the clinician sense, make our lives easier.

Certainly, there's other, you know, factors and things to worry about and be concerned about. But it is, to your point, um, you know, people who, clinicians who are at a very, you know, are not keeping up with what AI is doing, even on the most mild sense, may accidentally, you know, get left behind simply, simply just because of where that's where it's going.

Oh, I missed, uh, you're off again. 

Amy Bronson: I would agree. Okay. And I think that technology curve that we're on, right? Those that are not actively engaging in problem-solving and figuring this out, it, it, it will leave those clinicians behind. I think what I get more nervous about is not having clinicians at the table who are helping to drive- Yes

the solutions that we're creating. Um, and that's why I am so excited about more clinicians becoming bilingual in artificial intelligence- Yeah ... and computer science, and an understanding of like, what solutions are we actually creating and what- how does that work in the workflow, um, with our clinicians?

And more importantly, then what's the governance process? Who holds liability? And all the other infrastructure pieces that are surrounding that. And so I think this is just a call, um, for those, whether you are a clinician or a leader or you're in a startup, to really be thinking strategically about who you have on your team and who are the team members that are willing to stay engaged around this work.

Because it's fast, it's furious, and it's changing rapidly. Um, but I know about our profession, and I think clinicians out there, their superpowers are remaining curious and being connectors. Yes. Um, and when I think about the connections that need to happen, we hold the superpowers to continue to be the ones that are helping to shepherd this into a better space for all.

Um- And thank- And I continue to hold that as hope. 

Helen Tanner: Yeah. And thankfully I do, to your point, Amy, I feel like things are really starting to shift where, you know, the health tech, the digital h- health, the, you know, new care delivery models coming out. I think now it is becoming more and more obvious, which it is amazing, perhaps it wasn't obvious as much before, but I'm so thankful now clinicians are being asked at the table earlier and earlier, not just as late-stage advisors.

Yes. But on founding teams, you know, in the consulting with the engineering teams, at the design, all the way to the user experience. And so I, I think that is, it is such a fascinating place to be, and there are more opportunities for clinicians to utilize their skills outside of clinic. And, um, uh, that's a, it's such a great and exciting place to be, and that's why communities like this are being built, and there's so many wonderful clinician leaders building things to support, so.

Amy Bronson: Yes. 

Helen Tanner: Which is amazing. Um, yeah. So, okay, as we start to wrap up- I don't- is there something that you wanna share with us about something, you know, exciting? I know you're very busy building at Pepperdine, but- ... you know, what's keeping you up at night? What, what are you working on these days? 

Amy Bronson: Yeah. I, I think we talked a lot about it.

Um, certainly the AI piece for me, and more of it is the advocacy, um, for, um, clinicians that are currently in their roles, our future clinicians that are coming in, really trying to change the narrative about fear, um, into action. 

Helen Tanner: Yeah. 

Amy Bronson: What, what does it take to move the needle for us in not sitting passive in something that has the trajectory to really change, um, not just how healthcare is delivered, but how healthcare is managed, taught, all of the pieces.

Like, to be a part of a revolution, um, is exciting, and so I would love to see, and I love this community of being thoughtful about how do we do that together, and that is something that I am continuing, um, to try and pull together, is more and more, um, folks that are thinking about this, wanting to do action around how do we continue to move the momentum, because it's everything from, um, as I talked about, the maybe the less sexy pieces of governance but are so important, um, to this work and the infrastructure that we're building, and then all the way down through the educational pieces of how we actually implement to make that happen, um, for our future clinicians.

So that is certainly something, um, that I'm thinking a lot about right now, um, in the spaces for the future. 

Helen Tanner: If there are people listening who are just really passionate and motivated to jump on with what you're talking about too, I mean, where do you suggest that they, that they go? Or what are... Is there, you know, sh- should they look into that AI in medicine?

Is there something through... You know, what, what are some, I guess, tangible takeaways or places that they might look into? 

Amy Bronson: Yeah, I love that. There are a lot of places out there that are offering, right, additional certifications and, um, ways to get the knowledge and understanding. And I would say in whatever avenue you are feeling propelled into, uh, take a course, jump on, do some extra learning.

Um, there are lots of convening groups around this, whether you're a part of AAPA or a nurse practitioner leadership group or I would say find common ground with people who are interested in this. And then, yes, there are places like AI Med. I would individually and personally invite folks to come and join us there.

We have a conference in November. This one's gonna be in Florida. Um, we convene a group of, um, all sorts of different clinician leaders. There's tech, um, there's startup, there's pitches that happen for different companies that are, um, building around AI and medicine, but really thinking thoughtfully about that.

And so, um, I think there's a lot of different ways to get involved. Um, we need more leadership and more humans at the table willing to have these conversations. So, um, and certainly reach out to me. Um, I'm happy to have conversations with anyone who's interested in this space or, um, thought, um, leaders who are really thinking about how do we do this differently.

I think there's a lot of conversations happening and a lot of collaboration, um, that's happening around that, and so that would be the first places I would steer folks to is, um, some of those larger convening meetings around it. But, um, certainly if that feels intimidating, just reach out. Um, just happy to have a conversation.

Helen Tanner: Perfect. And what is the best way, best way for people to reach out to you? I know, um, there's a Slack community. Do you-- I know you're on LinkedIn. What's the best way? 

Amy Bronson: Yeah. LinkedIn is a great way, um, to connect. I'll also make sure that, um, you have my contact information. Send me an email. Um, happy, happy to connect, um, with folks who are just dabbling in, interested in, or just wanna be a thought partner, um, throw something up against a wall and just see what sticks.

Um, I really think partnerships make it possible, and more importantly, people are the ones doing that good work, and I think the more that we can connect and create community around that, um, I'm happy to always enjoy a conversation, a cup of coffee, um, or a phone call with anyone that's interested in continuing to move some of these needles forward.

Helen Tanner: Perfect. And, you know, as we close, um, my last couple questions for you, and I ask all of my guests these questions at the end of our podcast. And, um, what was... As you are a builder also, um, what was the single most helpful resource for you, a person, tool book, mindset, community? You know, what was the most helpful resource for you as you started to get into more of an ambiguous building phase, and why did that help you so much?

Amy Bronson: Yeah. Um, I, I think less than, like, a singular book and one human, I would say the best thing for me was community. Mm-hmm. Um, there was a group of program directors, we were all in our first ever program build, and the five of us had a connected community, um, where, which was a place we could ask really frank questions.

We were going through something for the first time. How does this feel? What are you doing? Um, and I think that community was so important to the work that we've done, and we've extended that out now, um, to really inviting folks who are new and new in that space, um, into, um, mentorship. And I think that has really grown for me into Mentorship Matters, and my whole dissertation work was on just that mentoring relationship.

And so I think just finding someone potentially who has walked those shoes, who has gone into a place that you may ha- are thinking about, reach out, have a conversation. Um, be willing to be a little bit vulnerable, and I think what you'll get in return is a real honest answer about where and what you could be capable of.

Because I think so often we don't necessarily put ourselves into those places, but good people around you will push you, um, to show up and to, and to find that place that's going to be the best for making the most impact. 

Helen Tanner: I think this is absolutely critical for... I mean, everybody needs a community, um, I, I feel.

But especially when you are in a- A building place and you're kind of on your own. You know, you're, you're responsible- Yes ... for really creating and building or leading something, and you just don't have a ton of you doing it in the same room or the same space. You're, you're physically kind of separated from somebody else doing what you're doing.

That is the number one reason ... You didn't, uh, this was not even a plug, but this is the number one reason I built this, because almost immediately when I started in a startup, again, no matter what books I read, what podcast I listened to, although listen to this one. But, um, you know, it, it was a great start, but really it was the people.

I needed people to then come home in a day and just be like, "Is this normal or is this not normal? Okay, this is normal. I'm, you know, two months in and it's normal to feel like, you know, I'm all over the place," you know. Or, "No, that's not so normal. You do need to ask these questions and get this to..." You know.

And so this is exactly why I built this because, r- early on I did not feel like I had this, and I was really struggling. Um, you know, and so I resonate with that so much. And you were early building kind of alone, first time and that, and to find people to do that together, it just gives you, like such confidence and like, I can do it, you know.

Amy Bronson: Yes. 

Helen Tanner: I'm- And 

Amy Bronson: I th- I think that is also why I am so passionate about these spaces, um, and so grateful for the work that you're doing here, and not an extra need for a plug. But I, I do think that making connections, but more importantly, seeing that other people have done it and that it is possible, um, also is so important.

We say that for our students all the time. Like, if they don't have people coming into the classroom who are talking about the opportunities and possibilities of what is out there, they may never even hit their radar- Right ... um, that that's something that they could do. And so I think just knowing that there's people that have gone before, and it might not have been easy, it was ugly, it was hard.

Um, and being vulnerable and willing to say that I think gives permission for other people to enter that space and to do it, um, even though it may not feel like they're prepared, they have it, or they feel like they can, m- you know, have the skill set to sh- keep showing up every day. 

Helen Tanner: Yeah. 

Amy Bronson: Um, which I think is part of the battle.

Helen Tanner: Absolutely. And then, um, as we wrap up, last question. How has being a clinician shaped the way you operate as an educator and a leader, and then vice versa? How has that work shaped your continued work as a, as a clinician?

Amy Bronson: I think that there is so much in the complexity of who we are as humans that as clinicians we get to experience, whether it's with the patients that we serve, it's students I get to come alongside, or it's faculty who are learning something new, that we have an, a capacity that we don't always understand to be able to connect in real ways, connect people to other people that make an impact, and then ultimately be able to see some of the good that comes in the world because of the work that we do.

And I think whether you're in clinical practice or you translate that into a leadership role, even though you may not get to feel or see that every day, those impacts are happening. Um, and so I just feel like I've been really fortunate, um, in my work and in my role to, um, to get to experience that in a lot of different ways.

And I think the capabilities of what we can do is only, only the beginnings, um, of what we have seen in the work that we can do as connected humans. 

Helen Tanner: Well, Amy, thank you so much for your time today. It was really fantastic kind of diving deep into the mind of a really stellar educator, builder for the clinician profession.

And I just really thank you for your insights and, uh, your guidance and to letting us really learn from you. So thank you so much for that. 

Amy Bronson: Thank you. It's been a pleasure to be here.